The exhaust enters the large tube, turns through 270 degrees.
The tube from the cowl goes well below the exhaust entry point.
Bottom section is removed to clean.
This page was last updated on December 19, 2011
Note - most recent additions at top New readers might want to start reading from the bottom
December Out put now 6000 kWH weekly output now about 180kWH- when running!
17/12/11
Several things have happened since the last post.
Firstly the exhaust started to eject some smoke smuts. This was not a probl3em 'till no.2 cat decided to go mousing in it. SWMBO was not impressed and neither was the cat when it got a bath!. An exhaust scrubber was fabricated that largely solved the problem and captured the smuts but it did seem that the exhaust would need cleaning
The exhaust enters the large tube, turns through 270 degrees.
The tube from the cowl goes well below the exhaust entry point.
Bottom section is removed to clean.
Secondly the system decided to intermittently fully load the engine with the governor fully over - lots of smoke and soot and reduced out put.. This proved more difficult to solve.
Initial thoughts were a blocked exhaust or inlet. A new, cleanable exhaust system was built and the induction system overhauled, new filter and inlet valve cleaned. No different.
.
New cleanable exhaust pit. Top is sealed and slabs placed on top.
PMA checked resistance fine and voltage on all 3 phases very close. No evidence inside of anything wrong.
Rectifier moved to a cooler area and replaced with a substitute. No different.
Injector serviced. No different
Different pump and fuel tried. No different.
Different injector tried (clutching at straws) No different.
A bearing was hot, could it be tight?, so that was removed and the oil pump and feed cleaned. No different.
The governor could be the problem, so that was removed,cleaned and replaced. No different.
Some blow by so head and block skimmed, bore honed
and the new rings that were waiting to be fitted were put on. No difference. (One big benefit of the Lister is that it is too heavy the throw in the pond!!)
Could it be the GTI?
The fault was becoming more frequent so:-
The PMA was again dismantled
and the damage below was found. It is more obvious here than it was in the stator.
It proved to be 2 wires shorting out, on load, intermittently. The wires were separated and away it went. I have ordered a new stator from the excellent Windy Nation who are always most helpful.
To make it less likely that it will happen in the future Windy Nation suggested keeping the temperature of the PMA case at 75C ish. It was around 100C+. To achieve this the end covers were drilled and a fan fitted together with a shroud to direct the air over the case fins.
Hopefully the Lister will now be happy as it has been largely overhauled with new rings, honed bore,skimmed head and block and a good spare big end that was on the shelf. A new main bearing has been acquired so that can go in next strip down.
September Out put now 4800 kWH weekly output increasing with the advent of colder weather to 100kWH
25/9/11
Over the summer several problems have been overcome but no unusual down time has been needed.
1. The cooling tank sprang a leak around the hot water inlet from the lister. A 'new' 205L clip top was sourced and fitted.
2. The in line filters that were being used for the solid oil were fine but proved difficult to heat effectively and of rather small capacity so a heated filter was made that uses an element made from J cloths. This has proved very successful so far.
J cloth heated filter.
3. Performance started to fall off over a period of a number of hours and this proved to be gummed rings. 3 of the 5 rings were stuck in their groves. This was easy solved, all the rings came out after soaking in paraffin over night, and re-assembled but performance still was not good. The injector was tested on the engine and seemed to be OK so it and the pump were taken to Diesel Services.
"The element is not good, lets test the injector ----- nozzle stuck open!!!".
How it was running like that I don't know it must have been intermittent, that would explain the gumming, lots of unburned veg.. In retrospect I can not remember hearing the injector creaking for a while. When dismantled the needle was broken. Apparently this is caused by a blocked leak off tube. A new nozzle has been fitted and I am looking for a new element for the pump, the old one is going back in for the moment as "it is not too bad". The suppliers of modern parts could not supply one.
While the pump was apart the fitter noticed that the element seat is damaged, this is causing veg at tank pressure to leak past the seat into the base of the pump, which is why I have to clean it periodically. We have tried a fix so that is another problem identified, another pump body will be sourced when one comes up.
Too help overcome the gumming seam injection rather than water injection has been suggested. A start has been made on a steam generator fixed to the exhaust. I have now discovered that Lister recommends cleaning the ring groves very de coke at 1000 hrs and I will also test the injector at the same interval. All running well at the time of writing with no apparent leaking of veg past the element.
4. Two more radiators have been fixed in the house. This makes 4 on the Lister time will tell if all can be used at the same time but I suspect we will have to selectively switch one off at a time to direct the heat where we need it.
5. A throttle leaver has been fixed to the governor spring to enable the output on the GTI, and the heat generated and fuel used, to be varied between a maximum of 2kW and a minimum of 1kW. These correspond to 500 and 380 rpm respectively.
6. The block has been drilled and tapped in preparation of fitting an auto stop so that the engine can be remote controlled from the house. An auto stop linkage from a SOM has been sourced.
7. The other crank oil seal failed, spraying oil all up the wall (again). The casting has been machined the same as the first one and a new rubber seal fitted. While doing this the opportunity was taken to clean the crank case of gunge and check the oil feeds. (I have got some AI (artificial insemination) gloves to uses next time I do this as I was black to the shoulders!)
8.The engine and bunker have be n cleaned so the environment is better and some old carpet tiles have been laid in the bunker, very posh!
I have been awarded ROCs which have also been sold generating £260, I hope that next year it should be around £450.
June Out put now 3900 kWH weekly output remains around 60kWH
24/6/11
Running on the solid palm is not a problem, provided the lines are flushed each night before stopping it also remains easy to start. Care has to be taken to ensure that the lines are fully hot before switching over to prevent stalling.
Some very grotty oil tried, I can confirm that the Lister will not run on water!. A water heated copper coil heater has been made for the grotty oil which is used to heat it in the open tubs. This is faster than the heating rod below which is fine in drums. In addition a heating cabinet has been implemented to keep the tubs of solid oil liquid to allow water to settle out. A water drain has been fitted to the heated fuel tank.
The injection pump was again becoming sticky so was cleaned again at 2112 hours about 600 hours since last time
Still awaiting confirmation of the ROCs, the output data was sent 2 months ago!
May Out put now 3500 kWH weekly output now around 60kWH
12/5/11
Output now reduced as it seems a shame to waste the heat generated and the cabin is using no electric heating.
A supply of used solid oil has been found. The oil is thought to be mainly palm oil. Some problems arose converting it to bio diesel so it was decided to modify the fuel system on the Lister to suit the solid oil.
Solid oil at 20 deg. C!
The oil becomes liquid at about +40C so heated fuel lines and tank were needed. A method of purging the filter and fuel lines was also proved necessary in order for the switchover from liquid veg to melted solid was to be effected in a reasonably short time.
This is the insulated, water heated, tank. Water heated spike to melt oil in cans
Water heated fuel lines, filter and bulb primer (black shape at back) to flush the lines.
This has proved very efficient so far. The bulb primer forces the liquid oil back through the pipe work and filter and back into the heated tank. Due to the volume of oil in the heated thak and the insulation it remains liquid for 24 hours so 30mins of running heats the pipe work etc to enable changeover of fuel. On shutdown a few pumps on the primer and a few minutes running means starting is easy next time.
To melt the oil in the cans before putting in the main tank a water heated spike is used. All the heating is done from the water cooling on the Lister.
April Out put now 3200 kWH weekly output now around 80kWH
10/4/11
Changing the fire washer under the injector proved more of a problem than I imagined. It was well stuck in the head. A tool had to be made to remove it. A modified raw bolt proved just the thing but even with this it took real force to remove it. With it out I took the opportunity to resurface the seat.
Tool showing ridge to grip fire washer Tool griping fire washer
Oil has been changed again. This time black but thin, 500 hours from last change. Stating has been a little harder the last few days I put this down to only now running 5 hours a day and starting from much colder. The EGHA has also been on for 2000 hours so needs cleaning as this may well becoming blocked. Cleaning by soaking in caustic at a ratio of 1kg caustic soda to 1L of water left to soak for 12 hours.
March
14/3/11 Out put now 2900 kWH weekly output now around 100kWH
Decoke needed, hard to start yesterday. It has run about 1500 hours from the last decoke so it is past the recommended interval. There was little coke on the piston but some around the edge of the head as shown on the picture below. It was easily removed. The exhaust valve was fine with superficial carbon but the inlet valve has a large amount of soft oily carbon. Most of it wiped off with a rag. I suspect this is through oil being pulled in through the valve qui de (I oil the valve gear with a can twice a day). Valves ground in
Now it is running much less due to warmer weather and less electric needed I have altered the inverter setting. It is now set to 2kW output. This means I can run for a shorter period for the same electric output each day. A problem arose with the Sunny data software. It locked up when trying to access the inverter. This was caused by the USB driver for the USBPBS. A downloaded driver from SMA sorted it.
On restarting I noticed a puff of smoke from the injector so suspect the fire washer has failed, this will not help starting. Will fix today.
I have noticed that the isolation valves used on the heating pipe work have stopped isolating. Clearly they are not up to the temperatures involved.
Inlet valve on left Notice coke around edge of head.
February
20/2/11
Fuel pump getting sticky again. Last dismantled and cleaned about 1100 hours ago. This time it was just some sticky veg on the rack so not a big job like last time. Some solid fat has been promised -will it arrive? (no it did not!)
15/2/11
Three breakdowns over the last 2 weeks. Came home one night to find the output down. Engine at normal revs????? After some investigation it was one of the 3 phases that had come disconnected from a connector. Next a silicone fuel pipe decided to leak 10L of oil over the floor. Fortunately the dip I put in the floor for just such an eventuality meant is was, relatively, easy to clean up. Next a connector came loose from a switch in the control panel. All problems are caused by vibration. Over a period of 2000+ hours it mounts up.
Going to look for some solid oil from a chippy to see if I can run it OK on that.
Weekly energy generated and used so far. The usage is for 2 properties. Our bungalow and mums, all electric, cabin annex.
2/2/11
In the papers now. Have a look at this link to the Birmingham Mail -if you want to see.
January
28/1/11 Out put now 2250 kWH weekly output now around 170kWH
Not much to report.
All has been running well and no problems. The engine has now done over 1000 hours since the last coking incident and still seems fine. Not running as much each day as it is not so cold and I am a little short on oil and am conserving stocks. If you want to get rid of any or want some collecting let me know.
December
23/12/10 Out put now 1300kWH running 24/7. weekly output now around 230kWH
Much has happened in the last month.
The bad things - The windsave inverters finally gave up. This is due to them not being able to cope, I think. The inlet valve decided to leak and had to be reground and as the head gasket had already been used several times an new one was sourced. While researching repairs to the inverters or a new inverter it was 'down' for a week. New inverter investigated and the SMA windyboy 2500 seems the best option but lowest new price found around £1400 -(very expensive :(.
The good things - I have been able to purchase a second hand windyboy for £750 with a confirmed 3 years of warranty remaining :). With the programming lead it has enabled me to up the output and reduce the revs of the engine. The software for setting up enables experimentation and I can alter input values (Watts and voltage) so that the engine is at is happiest and most efficient. It should also enable the heat output to be varied when it gets warmer. ( It has been below 0 here for more than 2 weeks with some temps locally reported at -19c ------the engine house has been constantly over 40c and the bedrooms toasty warm)
The new head gasket, sourced from a friend who buys from India, is a different type to the standard ones and seems much better, more compression 'at the starter handle' than it has ever had (even with the valves ground in), no air in the water (this was evident from tinkling in the radiators with the old style head gaskets) and better running.
Jobs for the new year include automating the starting and fitting safety cutouts on water and oil for the engine more radiators to be investigated when a thermostat has been fitted to the engine to maintain temp if over cooling occurs.
November
14/11/10 first 4 weeks generation 585 kWH and lots of heat in the bedroom
A number of things have been ongoing. One of the inverters has died, I have another one coming but I would like to find out why it died. Just in case it is temperature related I have now moved the inverters to an adjacent workshop that is cooler. The lister has been getting difficult to start, this was compounded today when it stopped. It was a thin piece of debris just stopping the inlet valve seating properly, the valve has been ground in. Water injection seems to be working. An 18 thou jet has been made and fitted into the inlet to squirt into the valve throat. It is powered by a a screen wash pump and slightly slows the engine when used but does not overwhelm it. Time will tell is a blast foe 15 mins a day is enough but it seems to work so far.
I have now started to automate the systems with a PLC. Ultimately this will start stop and monitor it but first it is going to ensure that the inverters only have a load applied when they are ready for it.
The Mini starter has been replaced with a Transit starter as the mini was only just sufficient and the transit turns it on compression which will be a benefit when it is automated with the plc. This is an easy fit as the pre engage mechanism can be easily removed together with the starter nose. There is a bush bearing on the end of the casing to support the shaft. Power 1.8kW
New starter from Transit diesel PTC heater for fule fule temp 150c draws 50W
October
25/10/10
Sunday running all day and overnight. This is the first 24+ hour run. All fine and no noise near house. It has now generated 0ver 200kWH.
Fuel leak Saturday evening (split pipe). 20L of oil on floor, fortunately the idea of having a dish in the floor contained the leak effectively and sawdust made it easy to clean up.
Heat from engine used to heat oil in bio processor via heater coil, very effective 160l of oil up to 60c, with the rad still hot
Decoke on Saturday. Having run for 150ish hours on test and first week generating it was obvious that coke was building up. (metallic knock at the top of the engine on occasions) The pics show what was found. Head gasket was reused.
While the engine was coldish and stopped bolts were tightened, a surprising number had come loose.
To reduce coking in the future an injector line heater was fitted this should raise the oil to 150C before injectior and promote more efficient burning. Water injection being considered.
21/10/10
Running for one week now during waking hours. Total generation meter shows 120kWH . Only one problems, a trip occasionally going out, traced to a fault in one of the modified energy meters.
Lots of heat with the bunker going off the thermometer at 50c but it is nice to go into to warm up as we have had frost this week. The one test radiator that has been fitted is keeping the bedroom very warm and the cats very happy, we have needed no other heating in the house.
An extractor has been fitted to the bunker feeding warm air to the workshop, a warm workshop is a novelty!
Two energy meters have been modified to fit in line with the inverters to show output, frequency and voltage.
Inverters hard wired in.
17/10/10
DNO and energy supplier advised of connection by post. I can not claim exported units as energy suppliers now only work with FITs not ROCs and bio mass is only ROC!
14/10/10
The 2 windsave inverters are fitted, in parallel, and they seem happy at around 800w each.
(The wiring is temporary for testing they will be hard wired.)
One of the inverter outputs
On testing over the last 2 days it has output 35kWh and the water tank is running at 90+ degrees C. Only one radiator is fitted in the bungalow so far but that is heating the bedroom and hall well and is too hot to hold your hand on.
In all very, very pleased/
14/10/10
Good luck today – 10/10/10 – at the car boot I attend infrequently, sitting on the grass was a pure sine wave 500w inverter by Mastervolt also attached were appropriate RCD and isolator. The price £2 (this is not a miss type). I have been looking for one to run the house in the event of power cuts. The evening load TV lights etc is 350 to 400w.
The standby gen head will run other equipment if required.
September
24/9/10
The far side main bearing seal started leaking.
The felt seal was replaced but failed to cure the fault. On closer examination the thin cast web was found to be damaged. Machining out the end of the housing and fitting a standard rubber seal proved both easy and very successful.
19/9/10
The radiator feed has been modified to ‘full flow’ –the water enters at the bottom of the rad and flows out at the top. This has solved problems of air in the radiator and will enable the return from the rads to go through the heat exchanger before returning to the tank.
16/9/10
The wiring to he meter has been completed. the total generation meter and lockable isolator are in place. The first radiator is in the house and working. with the Lister on non load it is pleasantly warm. SWMBO is pleased but wants a 'better' radiator!
The glow plug has been fitted and the Lister starts on Veg. On the coldest morning so far, 6 deg C it needed 10 seconds heat then the heater held in periodically for about the firsts 30 seconds of running to stabilise the speed.
6/9/10
The pipes for the heating and the main cable (SWA) and the 6 cores of control cable have been installed in a 2 foot deep trench to the house. Water pipe is 15mm barrier pipe with climaflex insulation.
Fuel tanks have been installed -2 25L plastic chemical containers linked together. The filter drum is in place with a fueltransfer pump to move the filtered oil to the fuel tank.
August
16/8/10
The exhaust has been finshed and SWMBO did not notice it was running untill going close! "that seems quiet enough......." so one of the main hurdles is passed. Ran for 4 hours with no load and got lots of hot water.
The exhaust is a 9 inch flexible pipe with a 4" upstand at the end all from the local recycling centre.
Fuel system and concvert to veg starting next. GTIs come in the middle of next month.
This is running after 2 hours. There is some smoke.
July
29/7/10
PMA wired to. mounted, voltage gauge. As hoped 250V DC registered with no load. The starting controls have been begun. Research into PMA suggests max sustained temp can be 130 Deg. C, it will not be anywhere near this.
The PMA with starter and control box Running at 250V DC
The starter box on the right has a heater , starter and pma cutout switch for starting.
26/7/10
At last a near full day to work on the project. The PMA has been mounted on the old radiator mounts. The starter is fitted and when the battery is charged it should work fine.
The polv V belt works a treat but some careful alignment will be needed to keep it running true.
The engine has been run for half an hour and all seems well, though the PMA did warm up but I think this is to be expected. If it gets too hot (what is too hot?) when outputting 2kW then I can easily cool it with the water from the engine cooling tank. The PMA is turning at about 1900 rpm - this should equate to around 250 Volts. Next job mount the voltage gauge and see! Photos will follow.
20/7/10
Machining of the poly V pulley completed and the starter one way clutch commenced.
16/7/10
The PMA, belt and volt meter have arrived. The belt is from a Wrangler jeep. The PMA has a tapered shaft so fitting the pulley will be easier than I had anticipated.
2Kw of Grid Tie Inverter have been sourced but not yet collected. These are 1kw Windsave inverters and a good price so hopefully they will do the job. I have to disable the brake function but that should be easy, (I am told!).
The PMA has been ordered from Ventura USA (Windy nation) and a 500V DC volt metre from China!
The PMA will be mounted above the flywheel with the starter by the side. Drive is will a poly V pulley (from a Wrangle Jeep 92" long, 6 groves 21mm wide). I will machine the pulley from aluminium and the boss from mild steel.
Sound deadening of the bunker has been done. 60mm of kingspan over the front wall and roof, much quieter.
June
15th
A core plug came out. Water everywhere! Someone had glued it in with epoxy previously but with some planishing and cleaning it went back in and seems to be holding.
Fitted new rings and head gasket. Much improved exhaust smoke -none! The old rings had a gap of about 2+mm the new ones the standard 12thou.
10th
Just got a Sunny boy controller on the bay for £1.20, compensation for yesterday.
9th.
Decided to remove inner COV and fit plug drilled for heater. Should have taken half an hour took 5 hours! What a pain. The saga is:-
Investigating the use of 2, 1kw 'windsave" Grid Tie inverters. The brake facility could be a problem.
May 31
This is the first update for some time but lots has been done.
Oil leak from main bearing on engine - oil sprayed up new paint!! (probably the felt seal, will replace)
Next jobs - test exhaust gas HE and see if it will heat the bio processor effectively, build an underground silencer pit an fit a heater plug to help cold starting. Voltage and frequency testing of the output is needed and an alternator to charge the batteries. (Thinking of a 24V lorry or bus one)
In May
Engine tested under load. At 3kw (immersion heater) it runs but works very hard. At 2200W (radial arm saw) it is very happy. As I intend to use it at 2kw this should be fine.
Water cooling fine, thermo siphon good and a tank of hot water in one hour.
Stainless steel exhaust fitted to take exhaust out of the bunker.
Cooling tank installed and tested.
Much noise was coming from the intake so a filter was fitted with a car silencer box. This shuts it up well.
In April
Bunker finished. It is now underground with turf on top.
It is painted inside with a painted floor.
Starter modified tested and built. This, hopefully final, version used a Mini starter motor and a pulley with a one way clutch. Seems to work very well and it is now easy to start generator.
In March
Generator commissioned and tested.
Generation meter purchased.
Accreditation for ROCs applied for from OFCOM - no response yet.
This is the schematic sent to OFGEM
In Feb.
General work on bunker and engine.
Jan 10
Test run with gen head in place starter and EGHE on left
Generator head acquired from a Brigs and stratton 4kw genset. A front bearing and rotor shaft extension have been fitted and the head test run. At around 1500 RPM a voltage of 160V shown on meter. Now to get gearing correct to give 3000 RPM at the gen head which I hope will be 240V and 50hz.
I am now going to develop the starter onto the generator head to tidy things up.
Starter under development - a sprag clutch is being used rather than the ring gear as the flywheel / starter was too untidy - it is working but more power needed! An A series starter should do it.
Exhaust gas heat exchanger fitted to home made manifolds and engine - seems to work well and not restrict engine but does quieten exhaust note. Most noise is now from valve gear and air intake.
Rubber mounts prove too flexible and removed but transmitted sound is not a problem, will it be worse when bolted down?
Alcad battery bank installed in bunker. This is an new old stock bank of 10 cells I was given 10+ years ago. Hopefully it will be used to power the lights and TV in the house. I think it is about 500amp hour. On trickle charge to see if it will hold charge. Will be charged from 12V alternator on Lister.
Electric starting begun -a diesel flywheel with ring gear sourced and machined to fit on crank. awaiting starter motor.
Snow stops work in some areas, cooling tank waiting to be collected
Changed big end as slight knock
Dec 09
The engine runs. First test run, no exhaust, is below. Next job the heat store tank.
Door made and fitted 75 mm thick to stop sound.
The slabs are now down and the engine is in place. It was easy to move with Maxine and fitted through the door!
The engine mount seems OK but time will tell if is is firm enough. Despite using the firmest rubber I could get it may not be firm enough.
Now to assemble and test.
Nov 09
Free slabs sourced for bunker yard.
The engine mount has been started. This will acoustically insulate the engine from the floor to reduce transmitted noise and vibration (I hope).
The bunker now has sides and a roof. It is waterproof! The sides are made from a double skin of 20mm shuttering ply with a gap between sheets of 50mm, painted and covered with DPM. The roof is 2 thickneses of 20mm shuttering with DPM and felt. The green roof will go on top of some pond liner on top of this. The front is 75mm thick wood. Door and triple glassed window to be made and the soil to be further banked up. To stop the sides collapsing in there is a 50mm screed of concrete on the floor inside the sides.
Most for the bunker material is reclaimed or left over from other jobs. The only purchases so far are ballast, sand, some cement, and some felt.
The Lister crank case has been striped, checked and painted. Apart from 1 lts of water and a large quantity of tar like oil in it all seems good.
Good luck!! I have been given a calor gas combi boiler with all parts working so now have a 25kw FPHE and 2 pumps + other use full goodies.
Oct 09
31/10 Concrete for base mixed and leveled. 2.5T
Registered with OFGEN as a generator. Can only register for FITs within 2 months of commissioning.
Free wood obtained for bunker.
Exhaust heat exchangers investigated and by luck one turns up on the bay. Just what I want (I think) but a little small. 2 in parallel should do it.
Block collected. Not a tidy job, I hope it will fix it. Fortunately a brand new block is available if needed.
now ready to cast concrete floor for bunker.
Sept 09
Much searching and bidding on the bay. Some lost most over priced highest price seen (not on the bay) £1000. Auctions attended but only 1 lister seen (scrap) Engine purchased as below.
Decision taken to use grid tie inverter (GTI). I understand that maximum input with G83 inverter is 2.5kw so this is the size I will work on. All the GTI that I can find require DC input so have decided the best way to go is to use a wind turbine generator with possibly a SMA windyboy inverter. (Thanks to various people on various forums for advice)
Silencing investigated and underground bunker confirmed as the best idea.
digging with Maxine (my digger) begins.
Strip down begun
Crack found in block. After researching welding rods @£12 decide to have it welded professionally as I was only quoted £20. Block taken for welding.
March 09
The search begins for an engine. Some very expansive. Startomatics around £350+
One found and a price agreed but unable to transport as it is on a base too wide for the trailer. This proved a good thing as this one found and successfully purchased from the Bay in September.
.
Jan 2009
Much research carried out on the web.
Inspiration found from Ken Boaks site.
Initial thoughts.- Lister Startematic? Stirling engine?
A possible plan.
